Wing anatomy.

[Diamond Dave]

What are ppls thoughts on the length of thr first bone (shoulder) distinguishing a distance bird from a sprint bird.
The theory being that the longer that bone the slower the wing beat. Thus flight csn be sustained over a longer distance.
A bit like a marathon runner having longer legs and a sprint runner having little legs.
I am aware of the theory by Bilco regarding the position of the knuckle but cant see how you can ascertain anything from that but then im wondering if I am missing something.....?

[king]

What are ppls thoughts on the length of thr first bone (shoulder) distinguishing a distance bird from a sprint bird.
The theory being that the longer that bone the slower the wing beat. Thus flight csn be sustained over a longer distance.
A bit like a marathon runner having longer legs and a sprint runner having little legs.
I am aware of the theory by Bilco regarding the position of the knuckle but cant see how you can ascertain anything from that but then im wondering if I am missing something.....?

Surely a fancier would not choose birds on this method. If buying sprint birds or distance birds you'd buy on performance not by the length of a wing bone.?
The birds breeding would tell you if the difference sprint or distance before you even picked the bird up?
And as winners come in all shapes and sizes this would make a nonsense of the theory.

[Anthony webster]

When I visited menne and daughters in Germany I handled all the national and international winners all distance pigeons
What shocked me was they handled like a sprint pigeon in body but when I opened wing there flight were much thinner thnt a sprint pigeons flights where there really wide that was only difference I see in them .

[Diamond Dave]

Wasnt looking at this as being a "theory" as such Neil but more of an 'anatomical principle.' It could work both ways to establish a bird as a sprinter as well
When you look at most maraton runners, they are lanky
with long legs yet sprint runners are short with smaller legs.
Transfer that to pigeons and I would imagine that bone from the shoulder to the first knuckle is the equivelent
Of our legs.
It occured to me that the longer that bone is the slower the wing beat would be thus less energy would be required than the bird with a shorter bone. The overall size of the bird would be relative of course and with this principle in mind a small bird with a long bone would be likely to cover a greater distance than one with opposite traits and likewise a bigger pigeon with a smaller bone would likely be quicker.
Ants observation of the feather width makes so much sense as well because it suggests the difference between an easier effort (call it a 'grand tourer') and an all out effort of a (super sprinter)
Of course not King - you would need to take everything into account when selecting.
No need to shoot me down on this lads I am not putting it forward as a 'theory' but more as an observation for discussion.....

[Steve Howells]

What are ppls thoughts on the length of thr first bone (shoulder) distinguishing a distance bird from a sprint bird.
The theory being that the longer that bone the slower the wing beat. Thus flight csn be sustained over a longer distance.
A bit like a marathon runner having longer legs and a sprint runner having little legs.
I am aware of the theory by Bilco regarding the position of the knuckle but cant see how you can ascertain anything from that but then im wondering if I am missing something.....?

Surely a fancier would not choose birds on this method. If buying sprint birds or distance birds you'd buy on performance not by the length of a wing bone.?
The birds breeding would tell you if the difference sprint or distance before you even picked the bird up?
And as winners come in all shapes and sizes this would make a nonsense of the theory.

Several years ago my mate in Belgium won 2nd International Barcelona with a pigeon called Matador, I never handled Matador because shortly after the race he was sold to China, but when I was visiting a few months later I asked to see his parents, I’ve still got the mother he says but not the father, I asked where he was, under that tree was the reply. When I asked him why he said because his vent bones were really wide apart Oops!!

You’re right king, grade pigeons on some of these wacky theories at your peril.

[Anthony webster]

I think everybody as a type they like then there's that click you get in ya head when certain birds land in ya hand that you can't explain but there's something there that draws you to the bird ,
Then there's birds that catch ya for some reason in 2017 I was in Brian Hawes garden he said come down lofts tone as I walked by he's yb aviary 2 birds caught my eye I picked them out to Brian never thought nothing of it following Yr Brian wins ubi combine 2 together the 2 baby's I picked out in aviary the blue had 2x1st 2x2nd n many other fed honours mainly losing on trap to team mates ,,
Why they caught my eye I can only say they were pure class .
See there all theories but we like certain things
Here you won't find a big pigeon
You won't find a old bird with a poor throat
Vents I look at but had many good hens u can squeeze ya little finger in gap in vents ,
I like tight wings that I mean when I put finger under shoulder bone I want the birds wing to squeeze my finger to body if its baggy I won't have them birds ,,but only things I like in dogs I won't have a dog with flat feet or narrow chest want 3 fingers between shoulder blades want big hips lots of certain things i won't tolerate I'm not saying I'm 100 percent right but lads who get my breed of dog never regret it ,
I still think it's the person and how there wired up some of us are probably two strict and some are probably to kind but that's life and that's what makes discussions good.

[Steve Howells]

Wasnt looking at this as being a "theory" as such Neil but more of an 'anatomical principle.' It could work both ways to establish a bird as a sprinter as well
When you look at most maraton runners, they are lanky
with long legs yet sprint runners are short with smaller legs.
Transfer that to pigeons and I would imagine that bone from the shoulder to the first knuckle is the equivelent
Of our legs.
It occured to me that the longer that bone is the slower the wing beat would be thus less energy would be required than the bird with a shorter bone. The overall size of the bird would be relative of course and with this principle in mind a small bird with a long bone would be likely to cover a greater distance than one with opposite traits and likewise a bigger pigeon with a smaller bone would likely be quicker.
Ants observation of the feather width makes so much sense as well because it suggests the difference between an easier effort (call it a 'grand tourer') and an all out effort of a (super sprinter)
Of course not King - you would need to take everything into account when selecting.
No need to shoot me down on this lads I am not putting it forward as a 'theory' but more as an observation for discussion.....

Honestly Dave I don’t think anyone’s trying to shoot you down. All these theories and ideas can make it kinda fun when looking at your pigeons, but in my opinion mean nothing, and you can’t compare humans to pigeons. If you want success at the longer races surround yourself with top class distance birds, not fancy names but birds that have proven winners in every generation, get them in the best condition you can then send them, you’ll get lots of disappointments on the way but stick at it and you will be rewarded at some point.

[Anthony webster]

There only theories
One think I learned years ago
You can't breed rats out of mice I was taught
That meaning if the parents wasn't good n g parents n gg parents stay away ,,
I explain it simple turns
You have a ice cream but if you put a teaspoon of dog shix in the ice cream it's still mainly ice cream but the dog shix is there and when ya eating it you will find dog shix same as breeding if you breed shix it to ya birds some where along the line that shix will show its self .

[goose1]

What are ppls thoughts on the length of thr first bone (shoulder) distinguishing a distance bird from a sprint bird.
The theory being that the longer that bone the slower the wing beat. Thus flight csn be sustained over a longer distance.
A bit like a marathon runner having longer legs and a sprint runner having little legs.
I am aware of the theory by Bilco regarding the position of the knuckle but cant see how you can ascertain anything from that but then im wondering if I am missing something.....?

I remember reading that in old books I cant say I know the answer as i haven’t had any distance birds
Goose has a excellent team of sprint and distance pigeons so he will be a good one to advise on this
Steve races really well at the distance so both will be handy with there findings

We haven't an excellent team of anything after last year mate
But my view on this is the same as any other theory or whatever word people want to call it, as I suppose to a certain degree there is some science to the wing. But still the basket decides everything. We pay no attention and never have had. As I've said before I don't like big pigeons and I do like a silky feathered pigeon apart from that I work on the pad theory the first one over it is me best pigeon, it's parents are me best breeders. I do agree everyone has a type of pigeon they like when they handle it though.
But all this stuff, wings, eyes, vent bones, backs or anything else we pay absolutely no attention. It's about getting the best pigeons you can, getting the loft right, keeping them healthy, motivated and fed correctly. I think there's enough there to bother about without all the other stuff
Mark Gilbert pays absolutely no attention to any theory or the likes. That's enough for me.

[Bowbroom]

Why don’t we have a competition for the most ludicrous theory? Winner gets a stone of winter mix half a pickstone and a years subscription to Billy’s weekly liar