UkPigeonRacing

goose1 wrote: Mon Aug 11, 2025 11:18 pm Pigeons, as with every other living being that competes, are getting faster, under certain circumstance, of that their is no doubt. With pigeons it's more on a head wind day, mechanically they can just fly faster now. We've every result since 1956 in our club and there's no doubt on headwind days pigeons are faster. Are they better absolutely not but they are faster. Tailwinds there's basically no difference in velocities to what we have recorded from the past.

Long distance pigeons I do feel have stalled these last few years. As you people who are older than me will know 500 mile birds in the 70s/80s were cherished by the early 2000s everyone with half an idea was getting day birds at 500 mile. I do feel because of various factors Long distance racing is as difficult as it has been at any point certainly during my lifetime and probably for a good few years before that.

As somebody who raced in the 70s/80s I agree 500 day birds were few back then. But that's not to say they were inferior to todays birds. Often if it was good at the race point they were up. And your right that period in the 2000s has long gone. Now as you say, long distance has become difficult again. Anybody following the NFC races will see even the very big senders are only getting a few in very good time.
Many of the long distance records will now take something very special to break. The British 1000 mile record has stood since 1975, (this performance broke the previous record in half), The 800 mile record (864 miles 2nd day) has stood since the 90s and the 24hr record (748 miles on the day) stands since 2008

Murray wrote: Tue Aug 12, 2025 12:14 am

goose1 wrote: Mon Aug 11, 2025 11:18 pm Pigeons, as with every other living being that competes, are getting faster, under certain circumstance, of that their is no doubt. With pigeons it's more on a head wind day, mechanically they can just fly faster now. We've every result since 1956 in our club and there's no doubt on headwind days pigeons are faster. Are they better absolutely not but they are faster. Tailwinds there's basically no difference in velocities to what we have recorded from the past.

Long distance pigeons I do feel have stalled these last few years. As you people who are older than me will know 500 mile birds in the 70s/80s were cherished by the early 2000s everyone with half an idea was getting day birds at 500 mile. I do feel because of various factors Long distance racing is as difficult as it has been at any point certainly during my lifetime and probably for a good few years before that.

I think long distance racing has very different challenges, it takes pigeons that have the heart to push on endlessly. There is probably less scope for dramatic improvement.

In my view, goose is right. Mechanically the pigeons can go faster. Even watching them exercising at home they get across the sky very fast. And they are smart. Clever. They learn so quickly.

Compared to the pigeons we had 30 years ago these modern strains are so much better. It may be they are not as tough, so they have to be handled differently. That might mean the training has to change, too.

How are they so much better Murray? You have said yourself they not as tough. They are also more prone to disease, get lost much easier, go infertile at a younger age.

Mark gilbert Barcelona on the day distance birds are quicker n can stay strong as well over hours n hours of flying,,
Look at humans look at carl Lewis n Linford Christie
100m legends they wouldn't even make the teams now ,
Look at Eddie merckx tour de france legend now he wouldn't even be in the race they would ride away from him like he was a kid learning to ride a bike .

Bowbroom wrote: Mon Aug 11, 2025 8:45 pm So no incontrovertible data?

Don't need data pal when I have eyes
Uk data tell us the prime minister is a top fella
So definitely don't need data.

king wrote: Mon Aug 11, 2025 5:01 pm I understand what Ant is saying, but think it's very hard to prove that birds are faster. A bird can only fly as fast as the weather on that day allows. Pigeons today race on 'better' days than they used too. Holdovers are very rare, races are cancelled when a cloud is spotted in the sky or put back 24 hrs.
I've results from over 100 years ago when the birds were doing 70 mph, I've seen results this year where birds were only doing 40 mph. The difference is not the birds but the weather.

You needed a good wind before to hit 60mph now a slight breeze they hit 60 mph easy

I think every one is missing the main reason that birds are faster today and also weaker and thats with the science behind the feeding.
The anatomy of a pigeon hasn't changed. Surely that would take more than a few generations (ours not pigeons).

Anthony webster wrote: Tue Aug 12, 2025 6:20 am

Bowbroom wrote: Mon Aug 11, 2025 8:45 pm So no incontrovertible data?

Don't need data pal when I have eyes
Uk data tell us the prime minister is a top fella
So definitely don't need data.

Forgive me but without irrefutable data to prove or disprove, an opinion is just that, an opinion
How can anyone know what the wind speed was over the course of the event, the wind speed can be calculated at the Lib point and at the home end but over the length of the course at regular intervals it’s just not possible meaning that the homing speed could be affected significantly.How many times have we been given the wind condition as variable en route?
I agree that generally speaking velocity may be affected due to improvement in management / feeding etc but that does not mean that birds are intrinsically faster. That is my opinion for what it’s worth.

Andy wrote: Tue Aug 12, 2025 9:54 am

Diamond Dave wrote: Tue Aug 12, 2025 8:04 am I think every one is missing the main reason that birds are faster today and also weaker and thats with the science behind the feeding.
The anatomy of a pigeon hasn't changed. Surely that would take more than a few generations (ours not pigeons).

I’m afraid I would have to dispute that Dave. As a farmer the quality of any grain can be much different at each harvest due to the weather conditions during both the growing season and at harvesting. So what you feed this year could be different than last in quality even if feeding the same mix. The biggest trouble is that fanciers are like sheep. Most just follow the latest fashions in both families, methods and feeding. Some get results others don’t.

I believe that is correct Andy, as a farmer I’m sure you would know.
In an attempt to correct the annual variation in nutrition and composition, there used to be a feed called Carta Carna? This was exactly the same composition all the time, does anyone know what happened to it?

Anthony webster wrote: Tue Aug 12, 2025 5:25 am Mark gilbert Barcelona on the day distance birds are quicker n can stay strong as well over hours n hours of flying,,
Look at humans look at carl Lewis n Linford Christie
100m legends they wouldn't even make the teams now ,
Look at Eddie merckx tour de france legend now he wouldn't even be in the race they would ride away from him like he was a kid learning to ride a bike .

Not knocking Marks Barcelona performance Ant, it was a great performance from 'Barcelona'. It wasn't for hours on the wing. Pigeons have been clocked up to 50 miles further on the day for many years before. And as for time on wing 100's of birds have flown much longer than Marks bird. I can think of one bird that flew 17+ hours TWICE over 40 years before.

2008 Tarbes Brian Denney clocked on the day 748 miles (51 miles further and 148.8 yds faster)
2008 Tarbes D Impett clocked on the day 787 miles (50 miles further and 148.3 yds faster)

I’m afraid I would have to dispute that Dave. As a farmer the quality of any grain can be much different at each harvest due to the weather conditions during both the growing season and at harvesting. So what you feed this year could be different than last in quality even if feeding the same mix. The biggest trouble is that fanciers are like sheep. Most just follow the latest fashions in both families, methods and feeding. Some get results others don’t.
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I'll stand corrected Andy but I was not suggesting that the quality of the grains had anything to do with it but the science behind the type of grain that ppl feed.
I maybe a bit naive on this but havent the grains gotten much smaller and lighter than they were 15 - 20 years ago. Thats about when I started and there was no mention then of checking the colour of the flesh to see if you were feeding too much protien. Or indeed feeding protiens through smaller grains.
I bet MG didnt feed a good old Irish mix to get his day bird from Barca.