UkPigeonRacing

Thanks everyone for the welcome and the replies. It’s great to see there are a few other people on here with a soft spot for the blacks.

King, I completely agree with you and that is probably the biggest challenge with the whole project. It would be easy enough to fill a loft with black pigeons, but that isn’t what I want to do. The race basket will have the final say. If a black pigeon isn’t good enough, I don’t want to keep it just because it is black, and equally I won’t throw away a good blue or chequer bred from the family just because it isn’t the colour I’m aiming for.

Dave, on the genetics and the bronze tint, I’m still learning myself and I certainly wouldn’t claim to be an expert on pigeon colour genetics. My understanding is that “black” can be produced through different genetic combinations, so the bronze you see may depend on what is behind the particular family rather than all bronze in blacks having one simple explanation. That is actually something I would like to learn more about as the project develops.

As for what I am starting with, I already have some black pigeons in my present racing family, including a black hen that won 4 × 1st before being injured and going to stock, and I have two black youngsters from my existing birds in this year’s race team. But I see those as separate from the old-family preservation side of the project.

I have been doing quite a bit of research and making enquiries about the old families. I have now made arrangements for foundation youngsters from the old Leus and Marcelis lines for 2027, and I am also trying to obtain some of the old Jules Severi blacks. I have twice recently tried to buy Severi pigeons when they became available and missed them both times because they sold almost immediately!

My intention is not to throw everything together straight away. I want to keep the old families separately at first, learn what each family is producing, and then make carefully selected crosses later. The Leus × Marcelis cross is one that particularly interests me, as I was advised that the old Leus are very tightly bred now while the Marcelis have a broader genetic base and are considered a strong breeding family.

Devo, thanks for the links. The Natural Breeding Station is actually where a big part of my research has led me, and I have been in contact regarding the old families they still maintain. I’ll also have a look at the German auction site you mentioned.

I’m also planning a separate loft for the project so that I can keep the different foundation families organised rather than mixing them into my main stock loft.

So at the minute I would say the project is somewhere between the research stage and the foundation stage. That is really why I thought it would be interesting to start documenting it now, before the loft is full and the matings have already been made.

Hopefully over the next few years this thread will show whether the idea actually works. I’m sure there will be plenty of wrong turns along the way, but that is part of what I want to document as well.

Nice one Joey.
I have 2 black cocks and 2 black hens in my stock loft but I have never paired them together up to now.
If there is anything I can do to contribute I would only be to pleased to help, perhaps share my breeding notes or something - but this sounds like a journey for your own discovery anyway so please do keep us all informed of your progress. It is an interesting project.

Thanks everyone for the welcome and the replies. It’s great to see there are a few other people on here with a soft spot for the blacks.

King, I completely agree with you and that is probably the biggest challenge with the whole project. It would be easy enough to fill a loft with black pigeons, but that isn’t what I want to do. The race basket will have the final say. If a black pigeon isn’t good enough, I don’t want to keep it just because it is black, and equally I won’t throw away a good blue or chequer bred from the family just because it isn’t the colour I’m aiming for.

Dave, on the genetics and the bronze tint, I’m still learning myself and I certainly wouldn’t claim to be an expert on pigeon colour genetics. My understanding is that “black” can be produced through different genetic combinations, so the bronze you see may depend on what is behind the particular family rather than all bronze in blacks having one simple explanation. That is actually something I would like to learn more about as the project develops.

As for what I am starting with, I already have some black pigeons in my present racing family, including a black hen that won 4 × 1st before being injured and going to stock, and I have two black youngsters from my existing birds in this year’s race team. But I see those as separate from the old-family preservation side of the project.

I have been doing quite a bit of research and making enquiries about the old families. I have now made arrangements for foundation youngsters from the old Leus and Marcelis lines for 2027, and I am also trying to obtain some of the old Jules Severi blacks. I have twice recently tried to buy Severi pigeons when they became available and missed them both times because they sold almost immediately!

My intention is not to throw everything together straight away. I want to keep the old families separately at first, learn what each family is producing, and then make carefully selected crosses later. The Leus × Marcelis cross is one that particularly interests me, as I was advised that the old Leus are very tightly bred now while the Marcelis have a broader genetic base and are considered a strong breeding family.

Devo, thanks for the links. The Natural Breeding Station is actually where a big part of my research has led me, and I have been in contact regarding the old families they still maintain. I’ll also have a look at the German auction site you mentioned.

I’m also planning a separate loft for the project so that I can keep the different foundation families organised rather than mixing them into my main stock loft.

So at the minute I would say the project is somewhere between the research stage and the foundation stage. That is really why I thought it would be interesting to start documenting it now, before the loft is full and the matings have already been made.

Hopefully over the next few years this thread will show whether the idea actually works. I’m sure there will be plenty of wrong turns along the way, but that is part of what I want to document as well.

Welcome to the site Joey and good luck with the Black Pigeon project hope it works for you and you get some good quality winning birds from the list you have tracked down
Look forward to the up-dates on this mate

Would be great too see some pictures also mate

That sounds like a great project, look forward to the progress.

Just don't make the mistake I made years ago when I decided I was going to have a loft full of blue bars, like the pictures in the magazines. All beautiful and shiny Easily done, two blue bars will always breed blue bars. I removed anything wasn't and within a couple of years they were all homogenous for blue bar.
Awesome. But I'd selected for colour at the expense of performance. They went okay but they never improved. For several seasons I was always about the middle of the results.
Then I was given a mealy cock, a blue chequer Delbar and a dark chequer Staf Van Reet. Immediately the pigeons started going better.
You are not a new flier, you know what you are doing, but be aware. If you start selecting for traits other than performance, it can cause a problem.

In my younger years of starting racing pigeon sport, I bought a little blue bar hen, only a youngster. But had a great shape about her. She was from the Delbar family of birds, I also bought a pair of grooters, they were a young black pair. They where from Hammond and Whittaker from Warrington, they were for the longer distance. This was the first time i raced pigeons, Well the Blue bar hen came on really good as a youngster, she won Hereford 2 young bird race for me. This was from 80 mile to my loft, she topped the Liverpool Amal with 7200 young birds racing. After this i was offered to go and work in Germany, so the birds had to go. The Delbar blue hen went back to the seller for free, he bred well from her. The pair of Grooters went to a friend of mine, and the rest of the birds also went for free. Then off to Germany i went.

Hammond & Whittaker are legends in the UK pigeon racing community, specifically renowned for mastering and perfecting the famous Grooters strain. Based in England, their legendary loft was highly sought after for preserving the pure bloodlines of these powerful, long-distance racers.

I have just been looking at this youngster, the pedigree goes back with Drapa lines. It would be interesting to see just where this family of birds came from.