A youngster for future breeding

[Murray]

Well put, Anthony. Very well put.
The top flyer with youngsters bred from his good racers, he still exists, we all know them.
But there are the big names who sell 800 youngsters in a " total clearance", then just a few years later, surprise! Another "total clearance!". They make a mockery of the whole sport.

[Andy]

Most of the top flyers only have a handful of real top pigeons in their lofts. The trouble is they use the names of these top pigeons to sell youngsters 2 or 3 generations down from them. Let’s take Kittle for example, as this is a pigeon mentioned in this topic. How can one pigeon possibly have so many offspring spring up all over the world. I know with cattle, Bulls, this is possible because of artificial insemination, but not pigeons. The only way for this pigeon to appear in so many pedigrees is to use, brothers, sisters, half brothers, hand sisters, uncle tom cobbly and all. Most of who have never been raced.

[Trev]

I can't honestly say that I've fully read and digested every comment posted here but from what I have read, I can see alot of very good and valid points, some I agree with and others I don't but that's just my personal opinion.
I totally agree that what wins/works for one fancier won't nesacerily do the same for another, the one example of this that I have is our late friend Des Coulter. Considering how many birds that he sold over the years, for very modest money by todays standards, I don't know of one fancier who has achieved with Des's birds what Des did. At the end of the day he was a stock man through and through and his knowledge/instinct could not be taught.
I also agree that far too many fanciers breed and keep far too many pigeons which definitely contributes to so many birds being lost and so many poor pigeons being sold. I think modern systems make this worse as many fanciers breed from their entire teams, in my experience a top racer won't necessarily make a champion breeder and certainly won't breed winners in every nest, on the spin of that some very average racer could very easily breed you a champion, as I've said before, it's all about knowing your stock.
As for buying birds from three or four generations down from the champions, most studs, louella, Tumley, ponderosa to name just three, have made a fortune out of this over the years and for the majority of us back garden/allotment pigeon fanciers, there is no way on this earth that we could afford to buy direct descendents off these champions so buying great grandchildren is the best we can do.

[Murray]

Most of the top flyers only have a handful of real top pigeons in their lofts. The trouble is they use the names of these top pigeons to sell youngsters 2 or 3 generations down from them. Let’s take Kittle for example, as this is a pigeon mentioned in this topic. How can one pigeon possibly have so many offspring spring up all over the world. I know with cattle, Bulls, this is possible because of artificial insemination, but not pigeons. The only way for this pigeon to appear in so many pedigrees is to use, brothers, sisters, half brothers, hand sisters, uncle tom cobbly and all. Most of who have never been raced.

Actually Andy, if you mate the cock to, I dunno, 6 hens and get 5 rounds, that's 60 youngsters. We will just take the cock birds to the next generation for this.exercise.
Mate 30 cock youngsters to 6 mates each and get 5 rounds, that's, um, 900 youngsters.
That's just the second generation. And not taking into account the offspring of the hens from the first generation.
Within three generations a pigeon like Kittel can have many thousands of descendants.
The power of multiplication:
2
4
8
16
32
64
128
256
512
1024

Just doubling a number turns 2 into a thousand in 9 repeats. Multiply each repeat by 6, and you are looking at millions.

[Murray]

And by the third generation, the pigeons has 16 great grand parents. 15 of them are not Kittel.
So, you are paying lots and lots of money for what is just another pigeon.

[Trev]

Most of the top flyers only have a handful of real top pigeons in their lofts. The trouble is they use the names of these top pigeons to sell youngsters 2 or 3 generations down from them. Let’s take Kittle for example, as this is a pigeon mentioned in this topic. How can one pigeon possibly have so many offspring spring up all over the world. I know with cattle, Bulls, this is possible because of artificial insemination, but not pigeons. The only way for this pigeon to appear in so many pedigrees is to use, brothers, sisters, half brothers, hand sisters, uncle tom cobbly and all. Most of who have never been raced.

Actually Andy, if you mate the cock to, I dunno, 6 hens and get 5 rounds, that's 60 youngsters. We will just take the cock birds to the next generation for this.exercise.
Mate 30 cock youngsters to 6 mates each and get 5 rounds, that's, um, 900 youngsters.
That's just the second generation. And not taking into account the offspring of the hens from the first generation.
Within three generations a pigeon like Kittel can have many thousands of descendants.
The power of multiplication:
2
4
8
16
32
64
128
256
512
1024

Just doubling a number turns 2 into a thousand in 9 repeats. Multiply each repeat by 6, and you are looking at millions.

Very well worked out Muzza and we know that these champions, especially cocks will have multiple mates in one season which is how some fanciers can afford/justify paying such vast amounts of money for them. You imagine how many second generation youngsters there would be that will still sell for thousands let alone great and great great grandchildren !!!

[Trev]

And by the third generation, the pigeons has 16 great grand parents. 15 of them are not Kittel.
So, you are paying lots and lots of money for what is just another pigeon.

And that how is the big buyers and sellers make their money

[Andy]

And by the third generation, the pigeons has 16 great grand parents. 15 of them are not Kittel.
So, you are paying lots and lots of money for what is just another pigeon.

And that’s partly what I’m saying. Unless that top pigeon is at least the grandparent, 25%, its value in the pedigree is pretty much useless, just a name on a piece of paper.